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	<title>Comments on: Crash Test Magic &#8211; Making 4E into a Superhero RPG</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.robotviking.com/2009/09/21/crash-test-magic-making-4e-into-a-superhero-rpg/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.robotviking.com/2009/09/21/crash-test-magic-making-4e-into-a-superhero-rpg/</link>
	<description>Gaming</description>
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		<title>By: Gavin O'Brien</title>
		<link>http://www.robotviking.com/2009/09/21/crash-test-magic-making-4e-into-a-superhero-rpg/comment-page-1/#comment-1210</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin O'Brien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 21:17:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robotviking.com/?p=1587#comment-1210</guid>
		<description>I see it as at-wills only with maybe a few dailies mixed in, as in the new Psion class available to D&amp;D Insider subscribers. You have a handful of at will abilities that can be modified using variability points to do different things. You also have a couple of mega powers that you can use once per day. The pvp modification would obviously be more limited with those powers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see it as at-wills only with maybe a few dailies mixed in, as in the new Psion class available to D&amp;D Insider subscribers. You have a handful of at will abilities that can be modified using variability points to do different things. You also have a couple of mega powers that you can use once per day. The pvp modification would obviously be more limited with those powers.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed Grabianowski</title>
		<link>http://www.robotviking.com/2009/09/21/crash-test-magic-making-4e-into-a-superhero-rpg/comment-page-1/#comment-1209</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Grabianowski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 17:02:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robotviking.com/?p=1587#comment-1209</guid>
		<description>Philo, when I form a real RPG publishing company, you&#039;re hired. All valid points. My only defense is that I was obviously constrained by the length of a blog post here, so a lot of those things would be addressed if this were actually fully designed. But certainly some of those things I hadn&#039;t thought of - always good to have a devil&#039;s advocate on staff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Philo, when I form a real RPG publishing company, you&#8217;re hired. All valid points. My only defense is that I was obviously constrained by the length of a blog post here, so a lot of those things would be addressed if this were actually fully designed. But certainly some of those things I hadn&#8217;t thought of &#8211; always good to have a devil&#8217;s advocate on staff.</p>
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		<title>By: Philo Pharynx</title>
		<link>http://www.robotviking.com/2009/09/21/crash-test-magic-making-4e-into-a-superhero-rpg/comment-page-1/#comment-1208</link>
		<dc:creator>Philo Pharynx</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 16:40:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robotviking.com/?p=1587#comment-1208</guid>
		<description>Let me play devil&#039;s advocate for a bit.  :)  What advantages are you trying to get out of this?  The 4e architecture limits the choices of characters.  This is an acceptable trade-off in D&amp;D because 1) it follows genre conventions and 2) it provides a much greater game balance than previous games.  In your proposal, you are much more limited than a point-buy system, and you still don&#039;t have as much balance as 4e D&amp;D.  If some players choose to spend all their points on a really nasty attack power and others choose to be less powerful and more flexible, it will be hard to create opponents that challenge them unless you make sure to have certain opponents face off with certain heroes (a plan that rarely survives first contact with the PC&#039;s).  

Also, are you keeping the &quot;At-will/Encounter/Daily&quot; triad?  How are these balanced point-wise and game-effect-wise?  Can you buy the same effect at different uses?  If so, how do you cost a daily vs. an at-will vs. encounter?   If there is a difference in effect, how do you balance them?  Part of this is related to the campaign style.  I&#039;ve been in superhero games where we&#039;ve generally had one fight in a day, and in games where we&#039;ve had to run a gauntlet of different encounters.  If you know somebody&#039;s GM&#039;ing style, you might decide to just buy at-will and daily powers.  

Further, how do super-stats work?  Are they bought with power points or something else?  Point-buy 22 won&#039;t work well for modelling a wide variety of heroes.  And many people judge a superhero game by it&#039;s ability to make a number of their favorite heroes work in it.  If you do make super-stats available, how do they interact with attacks and damage?

Finally, how do meta-powers work?  Superheros that copy other people&#039;s powers or who have wildly flexible powers like Green Lantern?  Without them, I don&#039;t think this game will pass muster as a complete superhero game.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let me play devil&#8217;s advocate for a bit.  <img src='http://www.robotviking.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />   What advantages are you trying to get out of this?  The 4e architecture limits the choices of characters.  This is an acceptable trade-off in D&amp;D because 1) it follows genre conventions and 2) it provides a much greater game balance than previous games.  In your proposal, you are much more limited than a point-buy system, and you still don&#8217;t have as much balance as 4e D&amp;D.  If some players choose to spend all their points on a really nasty attack power and others choose to be less powerful and more flexible, it will be hard to create opponents that challenge them unless you make sure to have certain opponents face off with certain heroes (a plan that rarely survives first contact with the PC&#8217;s).  </p>
<p>Also, are you keeping the &#8220;At-will/Encounter/Daily&#8221; triad?  How are these balanced point-wise and game-effect-wise?  Can you buy the same effect at different uses?  If so, how do you cost a daily vs. an at-will vs. encounter?   If there is a difference in effect, how do you balance them?  Part of this is related to the campaign style.  I&#8217;ve been in superhero games where we&#8217;ve generally had one fight in a day, and in games where we&#8217;ve had to run a gauntlet of different encounters.  If you know somebody&#8217;s GM&#8217;ing style, you might decide to just buy at-will and daily powers.  </p>
<p>Further, how do super-stats work?  Are they bought with power points or something else?  Point-buy 22 won&#8217;t work well for modelling a wide variety of heroes.  And many people judge a superhero game by it&#8217;s ability to make a number of their favorite heroes work in it.  If you do make super-stats available, how do they interact with attacks and damage?</p>
<p>Finally, how do meta-powers work?  Superheros that copy other people&#8217;s powers or who have wildly flexible powers like Green Lantern?  Without them, I don&#8217;t think this game will pass muster as a complete superhero game.</p>
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		<title>By: Nephelim</title>
		<link>http://www.robotviking.com/2009/09/21/crash-test-magic-making-4e-into-a-superhero-rpg/comment-page-1/#comment-1205</link>
		<dc:creator>Nephelim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Sep 2009 12:51:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robotviking.com/?p=1587#comment-1205</guid>
		<description>I like the idea of having a pool of per-encounter &quot;variable&quot; points, as well.  It could lead to a really interesting set of feats that are &quot;powered&quot; by them, things like the aforementioned escaping death by some profoundly unlikely means, or having &quot;a plan&quot; that gives you bonuses to a given skill or combat rolls against a specific foe, for instance.

Furthermore, you could have a feat - or even just a mechanic - where you could temporarily switch out powers for other powers for a turn\encounter\day (depending on how many of these Variable points you want to spell) of equal or lower base cost (ignoring discounts) to represent what in M&amp;M is called an Alternate Power - like Iron Man using his repulsors to boost his flight speed, or Flash using his vibration power to cause a disruptive resonance in an object.  Something that is possible, but not something they do all the time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the idea of having a pool of per-encounter &#8220;variable&#8221; points, as well.  It could lead to a really interesting set of feats that are &#8220;powered&#8221; by them, things like the aforementioned escaping death by some profoundly unlikely means, or having &#8220;a plan&#8221; that gives you bonuses to a given skill or combat rolls against a specific foe, for instance.</p>
<p>Furthermore, you could have a feat &#8211; or even just a mechanic &#8211; where you could temporarily switch out powers for other powers for a turn\encounter\day (depending on how many of these Variable points you want to spell) of equal or lower base cost (ignoring discounts) to represent what in M&amp;M is called an Alternate Power &#8211; like Iron Man using his repulsors to boost his flight speed, or Flash using his vibration power to cause a disruptive resonance in an object.  Something that is possible, but not something they do all the time.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed Grabianowski</title>
		<link>http://www.robotviking.com/2009/09/21/crash-test-magic-making-4e-into-a-superhero-rpg/comment-page-1/#comment-1204</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Grabianowski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 17:23:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robotviking.com/?p=1587#comment-1204</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s a good concept. I would make a list of things you could use the points for other than just boosting a power. For example, you could spend two points to exclude an ally from a burst attack, or spend two points to slide an enemy two squares. That would give a little more of that &quot;skill and mastery of my powers&quot; element.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s a good concept. I would make a list of things you could use the points for other than just boosting a power. For example, you could spend two points to exclude an ally from a burst attack, or spend two points to slide an enemy two squares. That would give a little more of that &#8220;skill and mastery of my powers&#8221; element.</p>
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		<title>By: Gavin O'Brien</title>
		<link>http://www.robotviking.com/2009/09/21/crash-test-magic-making-4e-into-a-superhero-rpg/comment-page-1/#comment-1203</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin O'Brien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 17:11:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robotviking.com/?p=1587#comment-1203</guid>
		<description>Leveling could provide a bonus like action points. Each level, a character gains level*mod power variability points that can be applied to certain numbers (damage dice, attack bonus, burst or blast, range). No number can receive more than half the character&#039;s total power variability points (min 1). A character&#039;s points regenerate every encounter. 

So, a level 1 character can do the ultimate supernatural meteor swarm of death and disaster power, as can a level 10 character. However, the level 10 character has the opportunity to make it more ultimate. 

I&#039;d say your total number of power variability points can&#039;t be modified by feats or anything, but Leader-type powers could grand temporary pvps. Maybe feats could alter how you use points or perhaps let you regenerate points.

Could be a bit powerful in later levels, but they are superheros.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Leveling could provide a bonus like action points. Each level, a character gains level*mod power variability points that can be applied to certain numbers (damage dice, attack bonus, burst or blast, range). No number can receive more than half the character&#8217;s total power variability points (min 1). A character&#8217;s points regenerate every encounter. </p>
<p>So, a level 1 character can do the ultimate supernatural meteor swarm of death and disaster power, as can a level 10 character. However, the level 10 character has the opportunity to make it more ultimate. </p>
<p>I&#8217;d say your total number of power variability points can&#8217;t be modified by feats or anything, but Leader-type powers could grand temporary pvps. Maybe feats could alter how you use points or perhaps let you regenerate points.</p>
<p>Could be a bit powerful in later levels, but they are superheros.</p>
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		<title>By: ggodo</title>
		<link>http://www.robotviking.com/2009/09/21/crash-test-magic-making-4e-into-a-superhero-rpg/comment-page-1/#comment-1202</link>
		<dc:creator>ggodo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 03:01:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robotviking.com/?p=1587#comment-1202</guid>
		<description>Death-wise, IT WAS A CLONE! or something would make an awesome feat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Death-wise, IT WAS A CLONE! or something would make an awesome feat.</p>
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		<title>By: mordicai</title>
		<link>http://www.robotviking.com/2009/09/21/crash-test-magic-making-4e-into-a-superhero-rpg/comment-page-1/#comment-1201</link>
		<dc:creator>mordicai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 01:34:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robotviking.com/?p=1587#comment-1201</guid>
		<description>Overthinking it; just don&#039;t require implements/weapons &amp; the fighter is the HulkThing, the Warlock is your blaster, Wizard is your elementalist, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Overthinking it; just don&#8217;t require implements/weapons &amp; the fighter is the HulkThing, the Warlock is your blaster, Wizard is your elementalist, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: ggodo</title>
		<link>http://www.robotviking.com/2009/09/21/crash-test-magic-making-4e-into-a-superhero-rpg/comment-page-1/#comment-1200</link>
		<dc:creator>ggodo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 00:12:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robotviking.com/?p=1587#comment-1200</guid>
		<description>Well, the damage thing was just a unique quirk to this system, eventually it stops looking like 4e and becomes its own beast, right?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, the damage thing was just a unique quirk to this system, eventually it stops looking like 4e and becomes its own beast, right?</p>
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		<title>By: Ed Grabianowski</title>
		<link>http://www.robotviking.com/2009/09/21/crash-test-magic-making-4e-into-a-superhero-rpg/comment-page-1/#comment-1199</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Grabianowski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Sep 2009 23:59:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robotviking.com/?p=1587#comment-1199</guid>
		<description>Yeah, maybe the utility powers would show up like feats do now: level 5 you pick from a certain group, level 11, a different group, etc. I like that.

Also, it goes without saying that I didn&#039;t even get into redoing damage, villains, the death system, stealth or any of the five dozen things that would have to happen to actually do this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, maybe the utility powers would show up like feats do now: level 5 you pick from a certain group, level 11, a different group, etc. I like that.</p>
<p>Also, it goes without saying that I didn&#8217;t even get into redoing damage, villains, the death system, stealth or any of the five dozen things that would have to happen to actually do this.</p>
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		<title>By: ggodo</title>
		<link>http://www.robotviking.com/2009/09/21/crash-test-magic-making-4e-into-a-superhero-rpg/comment-page-1/#comment-1198</link>
		<dc:creator>ggodo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Sep 2009 23:44:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robotviking.com/?p=1587#comment-1198</guid>
		<description>I played a super hero RPG once that did something kinda similar, except instead of having the trees it just gave you new variations on your powers per level. I played a martial artist with an upgrade that let me deal non lethal damage as lethal. now, to understand a bit how damage worked, everyone has two health numbers, losing one leads to unconsciousness, losing the other leads to death. Attacks will either hit one set of health or the other. The unconsciousness number is generally 5-10 times the lethal number and the attacks tend to deal damage to it in the double digits, while 18 is as high as a level one character can have for the lethal number. Martial Arts has a perk that lets them hit with nonlethal attacks as lethal damage. I kicked people so hard they exploded.


That anecdote aside, for character creation everybody got an offensive power, a defensive power and a travel power. The offensive powers pretty much defined your class while the other two don&#039;t need to necessarily make sense. A different PC was a vibrating ferret-man, for example. As you leveled up you got more tricks in line with your offensive powers. Psychic guy gets telekinesis, Martial arts guy kicks things harder, ferret-man vibrates harder and might get an added benefit like The Flash&#039;s vibrate through walls trick. This sort of a system is nice because that travel power really helps let the slower guys keep up, simply by not having any slower guys.

I&#039;d give the first utility power free, but maybe tier which ones you can get free. That way everyone will be able to stay somewhat together without having to spend extra points on rather situational movement stuff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I played a super hero RPG once that did something kinda similar, except instead of having the trees it just gave you new variations on your powers per level. I played a martial artist with an upgrade that let me deal non lethal damage as lethal. now, to understand a bit how damage worked, everyone has two health numbers, losing one leads to unconsciousness, losing the other leads to death. Attacks will either hit one set of health or the other. The unconsciousness number is generally 5-10 times the lethal number and the attacks tend to deal damage to it in the double digits, while 18 is as high as a level one character can have for the lethal number. Martial Arts has a perk that lets them hit with nonlethal attacks as lethal damage. I kicked people so hard they exploded.</p>
<p>That anecdote aside, for character creation everybody got an offensive power, a defensive power and a travel power. The offensive powers pretty much defined your class while the other two don&#8217;t need to necessarily make sense. A different PC was a vibrating ferret-man, for example. As you leveled up you got more tricks in line with your offensive powers. Psychic guy gets telekinesis, Martial arts guy kicks things harder, ferret-man vibrates harder and might get an added benefit like The Flash&#8217;s vibrate through walls trick. This sort of a system is nice because that travel power really helps let the slower guys keep up, simply by not having any slower guys.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d give the first utility power free, but maybe tier which ones you can get free. That way everyone will be able to stay somewhat together without having to spend extra points on rather situational movement stuff.</p>
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