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	<title>Comments on: Using Positive Reinforcement to Make 4E Combat Faster</title>
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	<link>http://www.robotviking.com/2009/12/03/using-positive-reinforcement-to-make-4e-combat-faster/</link>
	<description>Gaming</description>
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		<title>By: Megido</title>
		<link>http://www.robotviking.com/2009/12/03/using-positive-reinforcement-to-make-4e-combat-faster/comment-page-1/#comment-1383</link>
		<dc:creator>Megido</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 23:22:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robotviking.com/?p=1751#comment-1383</guid>
		<description>I kinda like the purchase system idea.  Gives players more options, and might even add a bit of strategy to how we employ our chips.

The positive reinforcement in general is really effective for speeding up fights.  It kinda keeps everybody paying attention to combat, so they can start planning their turn ahead of time.  And just doing that much even makes combat more enjoyable, because we&#039;re not being lazy, and zoning out when it isn&#039;t our turn.  We&#039;re actively thinking about what to do next.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I kinda like the purchase system idea.  Gives players more options, and might even add a bit of strategy to how we employ our chips.</p>
<p>The positive reinforcement in general is really effective for speeding up fights.  It kinda keeps everybody paying attention to combat, so they can start planning their turn ahead of time.  And just doing that much even makes combat more enjoyable, because we&#8217;re not being lazy, and zoning out when it isn&#8217;t our turn.  We&#8217;re actively thinking about what to do next.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryk Perry</title>
		<link>http://www.robotviking.com/2009/12/03/using-positive-reinforcement-to-make-4e-combat-faster/comment-page-1/#comment-1382</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryk Perry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 22:02:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robotviking.com/?p=1751#comment-1382</guid>
		<description>The newest suggestion, as of last night, was that the white chips fade after a game session, rather than after a short or even long rest.  I think that&#039;s a reasonable idea.  

I was also thinking of converting it to a purchase system, rather than just a roll for percentages.  that way you could buy an encounter back for say 5 chips, and maybe a daily for 10 or 15.  If you did it that way it might make more sense for the chips to reset at an extended rest.  You could also buy an action point for say 8 or 10.  Of course you still can&#039;t spend more than one action point in an encounter.  Maybe even purchase back healing surges for 3 or so.

I like the idea of the purchase system (especially for daily powers) &#039;cuz I&#039;ve never been fully satisfied with 4e&#039;s tendancy to require a rest after every 2 encounters or so.  

The original concept was that if a player hadn&#039;t declared his/her initial action within 1 minute, the player&#039;s initiative fell to 1 point behind the next actor in the initiative order.  Technically that was still in effect (at least while I was still DM) and the party seemed to have gotten over major lags in deciding on an action.  However battles were still slow, particularly with long convoluted resolutions to actions (mostly from controllers, though certain drow barbarians ended up doing a LOT of stuff in one turn).

The army currently teaches its occicers and NCO&#039;s that it&#039;s better to make an OK decision NOW than it is to make the best decision later.  I wanted to make that applicable to D&amp;D but as Ed mentioned, the negative effects were a little too adversarial (player v. DM rather than character v. monster).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The newest suggestion, as of last night, was that the white chips fade after a game session, rather than after a short or even long rest.  I think that&#8217;s a reasonable idea.  </p>
<p>I was also thinking of converting it to a purchase system, rather than just a roll for percentages.  that way you could buy an encounter back for say 5 chips, and maybe a daily for 10 or 15.  If you did it that way it might make more sense for the chips to reset at an extended rest.  You could also buy an action point for say 8 or 10.  Of course you still can&#8217;t spend more than one action point in an encounter.  Maybe even purchase back healing surges for 3 or so.</p>
<p>I like the idea of the purchase system (especially for daily powers) &#8216;cuz I&#8217;ve never been fully satisfied with 4e&#8217;s tendancy to require a rest after every 2 encounters or so.  </p>
<p>The original concept was that if a player hadn&#8217;t declared his/her initial action within 1 minute, the player&#8217;s initiative fell to 1 point behind the next actor in the initiative order.  Technically that was still in effect (at least while I was still DM) and the party seemed to have gotten over major lags in deciding on an action.  However battles were still slow, particularly with long convoluted resolutions to actions (mostly from controllers, though certain drow barbarians ended up doing a LOT of stuff in one turn).</p>
<p>The army currently teaches its occicers and NCO&#8217;s that it&#8217;s better to make an OK decision NOW than it is to make the best decision later.  I wanted to make that applicable to D&amp;D but as Ed mentioned, the negative effects were a little too adversarial (player v. DM rather than character v. monster).</p>
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		<title>By: Philo Pharynx</title>
		<link>http://www.robotviking.com/2009/12/03/using-positive-reinforcement-to-make-4e-combat-faster/comment-page-1/#comment-1381</link>
		<dc:creator>Philo Pharynx</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 19:45:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robotviking.com/?p=1751#comment-1381</guid>
		<description>To avoid penalizing the controllers, I&#039;d give it based on the first roll.  I find the worst delays are based in figuring out what to use.  One player always has to look stuff up in his book, even when the others tell him based on the PDF (purchased during the brief period when they were legal).  By having people decide the power and the targets quickly, it helps immensely.  

But it doesn&#039;t help when it&#039;s the GM who&#039;s slow. 

As to using one at a time or all at once, I&#039;d make a rule that you can only roll once per turn.  Because if you roll five times, that will slow down the game.

Personally, I&#039;d use a chance of a bonus action point instead of recovering a power. This would be anextra AP that could be used even if you&#039;ve already spent one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To avoid penalizing the controllers, I&#8217;d give it based on the first roll.  I find the worst delays are based in figuring out what to use.  One player always has to look stuff up in his book, even when the others tell him based on the PDF (purchased during the brief period when they were legal).  By having people decide the power and the targets quickly, it helps immensely.  </p>
<p>But it doesn&#8217;t help when it&#8217;s the GM who&#8217;s slow. </p>
<p>As to using one at a time or all at once, I&#8217;d make a rule that you can only roll once per turn.  Because if you roll five times, that will slow down the game.</p>
<p>Personally, I&#8217;d use a chance of a bonus action point instead of recovering a power. This would be anextra AP that could be used even if you&#8217;ve already spent one.</p>
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		<title>By: ggodo</title>
		<link>http://www.robotviking.com/2009/12/03/using-positive-reinforcement-to-make-4e-combat-faster/comment-page-1/#comment-1380</link>
		<dc:creator>ggodo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 19:03:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robotviking.com/?p=1751#comment-1380</guid>
		<description>Yea, that&#039;s the story of my wizard.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yea, that&#8217;s the story of my wizard.</p>
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		<title>By: Megido</title>
		<link>http://www.robotviking.com/2009/12/03/using-positive-reinforcement-to-make-4e-combat-faster/comment-page-1/#comment-1379</link>
		<dc:creator>Megido</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 16:54:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robotviking.com/?p=1751#comment-1379</guid>
		<description>Yeah, just leave all the hitting to the melee fighters.  In the mean time you can have really short turns due to all the missing, and accumulate more white chips!  That way you can get back a daily (If we implement a system that allows for it), and miss with it all over again.  It&#039;ll be awesome!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, just leave all the hitting to the melee fighters.  In the mean time you can have really short turns due to all the missing, and accumulate more white chips!  That way you can get back a daily (If we implement a system that allows for it), and miss with it all over again.  It&#8217;ll be awesome!</p>
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		<title>By: Gavin O'Brien</title>
		<link>http://www.robotviking.com/2009/12/03/using-positive-reinforcement-to-make-4e-combat-faster/comment-page-1/#comment-1378</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin O'Brien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 12:14:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robotviking.com/?p=1751#comment-1378</guid>
		<description>Hitting is overrated. I haven&#039;t hit with a Daily attack power in over 3 weeks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hitting is overrated. I haven&#8217;t hit with a Daily attack power in over 3 weeks.</p>
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		<title>By: ggodo</title>
		<link>http://www.robotviking.com/2009/12/03/using-positive-reinforcement-to-make-4e-combat-faster/comment-page-1/#comment-1377</link>
		<dc:creator>ggodo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 08:44:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robotviking.com/?p=1751#comment-1377</guid>
		<description>Good lord does my group need this. We&#039;re level 2 ish and it takes us FOREVER to finish combat. Holy crap. Some days I feel like I could play a game of Risk and still be done before we kill the fucking ooze. Puzzle-based ooze boss with a party that fails at puzzle thinking sounds funny from a distance but takes forever in practice. Of course, it does give My wizard plenty of chances to miss with everything better than an at-will, yet still finish off an ooze while bleeding out in the corner.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good lord does my group need this. We&#8217;re level 2 ish and it takes us FOREVER to finish combat. Holy crap. Some days I feel like I could play a game of Risk and still be done before we kill the fucking ooze. Puzzle-based ooze boss with a party that fails at puzzle thinking sounds funny from a distance but takes forever in practice. Of course, it does give My wizard plenty of chances to miss with everything better than an at-will, yet still finish off an ooze while bleeding out in the corner.</p>
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		<title>By: Megido</title>
		<link>http://www.robotviking.com/2009/12/03/using-positive-reinforcement-to-make-4e-combat-faster/comment-page-1/#comment-1376</link>
		<dc:creator>Megido</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 07:17:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robotviking.com/?p=1751#comment-1376</guid>
		<description>Those statistics are depressing.  But hey, a slim chance is getter than no chance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Those statistics are depressing.  But hey, a slim chance is getter than no chance.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed Grabianowski</title>
		<link>http://www.robotviking.com/2009/12/03/using-positive-reinforcement-to-make-4e-combat-faster/comment-page-1/#comment-1375</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Grabianowski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 05:25:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robotviking.com/?p=1751#comment-1375</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m terrible at statistics, but now that I look at it, rolling d100 with a five percent chance five different times is statistically equal to rolling once with a 25 percent chance (P=.25 either way, ie .05+.05+.05+.05+.05 vs .25). 

However, if you save up and cash in five chips, your probability of getting the power back more than one time = 0. The probability of two successful rolls with the five separate five percent rolls is only .05 (.25 * .2), but it&#039;s still greater than 0. The probabilities get vanishingly small the more successful rolls you hope for (down to .0000003125, or 0.00003125 % for five out of five), but it never reaches zero.

Bottom line, unless I&#039;ve botched this horribly, it&#039;s always a better play to roll each turn (unless you haven&#039;t spent an encounter power you want back yet).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m terrible at statistics, but now that I look at it, rolling d100 with a five percent chance five different times is statistically equal to rolling once with a 25 percent chance (P=.25 either way, ie .05+.05+.05+.05+.05 vs .25). </p>
<p>However, if you save up and cash in five chips, your probability of getting the power back more than one time = 0. The probability of two successful rolls with the five separate five percent rolls is only .05 (.25 * .2), but it&#8217;s still greater than 0. The probabilities get vanishingly small the more successful rolls you hope for (down to .0000003125, or 0.00003125 % for five out of five), but it never reaches zero.</p>
<p>Bottom line, unless I&#8217;ve botched this horribly, it&#8217;s always a better play to roll each turn (unless you haven&#8217;t spent an encounter power you want back yet).</p>
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		<title>By: zizhou</title>
		<link>http://www.robotviking.com/2009/12/03/using-positive-reinforcement-to-make-4e-combat-faster/comment-page-1/#comment-1374</link>
		<dc:creator>zizhou</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 03:57:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robotviking.com/?p=1751#comment-1374</guid>
		<description>If you figure the 5% rolls in terms of NOT getting the recover (0.95), if you use five chips individually, 77% of the time (0.95^5), you will fail on all five tries. Compare this to the 75% chance of failure with one big go and it&#039;s not that much worse. And there is always the chance that you will get lucky, dice being fickle the way they are...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you figure the 5% rolls in terms of NOT getting the recover (0.95), if you use five chips individually, 77% of the time (0.95^5), you will fail on all five tries. Compare this to the 75% chance of failure with one big go and it&#8217;s not that much worse. And there is always the chance that you will get lucky, dice being fickle the way they are&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Megido</title>
		<link>http://www.robotviking.com/2009/12/03/using-positive-reinforcement-to-make-4e-combat-faster/comment-page-1/#comment-1373</link>
		<dc:creator>Megido</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 03:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robotviking.com/?p=1751#comment-1373</guid>
		<description>So far I think we&#039;re all liking the system, but it seems like we&#039;re more concerned with collecting, and hoarding the chips than actually using them.  The problem is that we&#039;re probably all trying to save up for that big chance at recovering a power, when really we should just go for it with whatever chips we&#039;ve got.  I&#039;m gonna start doing that myself; get 2, 3, or 4 chips, then have a go at it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So far I think we&#8217;re all liking the system, but it seems like we&#8217;re more concerned with collecting, and hoarding the chips than actually using them.  The problem is that we&#8217;re probably all trying to save up for that big chance at recovering a power, when really we should just go for it with whatever chips we&#8217;ve got.  I&#8217;m gonna start doing that myself; get 2, 3, or 4 chips, then have a go at it.</p>
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